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    Hi Alex,<br>
    <br>
    I think there is a need for two different mailing lists and
    documentation for two type of audences:<br>
    <br>
    1- For end users and non programmers who wants to create a website,
    which youtube videos are great<br>
    since it is all through GUI and then a mailing list in case they
    have any question.<br>
    <br>
    2- For developers and programmers who wants to contribute in
    extending OpenCMS either<br>
    by developing modules or adding functionality to core OpenCMS.<br>
    <br>
    In a world that every one looking for an easy and fast deployment of
    website, lets have the deployment<br>
    for end user be the easiest with youtube videos and make sure when
    we build a website for customer<br>
    they can manage it easy enough otherwise the developer will be doing
    most of the parts.<br>
    <br>
    The other point is continuity of document.<br>
    Document should follow some pattern or progress in building a
    website to show the user the power and easiness<br>
    of OpenCMS in building a website.<br>
    <br>
    Finally, why not OpenCMS website for the central point of
    documentation.<br>
    I am looking at other CMS websites, and they all hosting
    documentation on their website<br>
    and even for youtube or vimero they load the video within their
    website.<br>
    If Wiki is not convenient, then a tutorial on how to document manage
    document in OpenCMS <br>
    and setup a place for people to contribute would be the best place
    to start.<br>
    Then others learn OpenCMS through learning how to document other
    stuff.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Thanks<br>
    Babak<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
     <br>
    <br>
    Thanks<br>
    Babak<br>
     <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2014 8:20 AM, Alexander
      Kandzior wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:014e01cffcf1$6fc96060$4f5c2120$@opencms.org"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">I want to share some points regarding the wiki
            and the documentation:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">We (Alkacon) operate the wiki. In the sense
            that we run the server and own the domain. This is so since
            about 2009.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">About 2 years ago we started to put more effort
            in the documentation. The wiki soon proved to be not ideal
            because of versioning and other issues. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">This is why we did the documentation of 8.5 /
            9.0 as PDF and shipped this together with the distribution.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">Our team did not contribute much more to the
            wiki after we started with the PDF version because we simply
            do not have the resources to do both.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">With 9.5, we have switched from PDF to HTML
            because we found out that the PDF version was not ideal
            either. We also greatly increased the resources put into the
            documentation in general.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">The 9.5 documentation will be online in a
            dedicated website. RTA is before the end of the year
            (hopefully by end of November).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">The 9.5 documentation covers both end-user and
            developer perspectives. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">I still believe it’s good to have the wiki and
            I do not intend to shut it down. We will try to link to the
            wiki better from the official sites.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">Any help in the documentation effort is greatly
            appreciated. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">Kind Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">Alex.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">-------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">Alexander Kandzior<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">                                                             
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US">Alkacon Software GmbH  - The OpenCms
            Experts                 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.alkacon.com">http://www.alkacon.com</a> -
            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.opencms.org">http://www.opencms.org</a>                  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
                lang="EN-US"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:opencms-dev-bounces@opencms.org">opencms-dev-bounces@opencms.org</a>
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:opencms-dev-bounces@opencms.org">mailto:opencms-dev-bounces@opencms.org</a>] <b>On Behalf
                  Of </b>Schliemann, Kai<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, Nov</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">ember
                10, 2014 2:59 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> The OpenCms mailing list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [opencms-dev] OpenCms 9.5.0
                documentation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hello,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">       </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I know about the wiki status. And I agree with
            you, that the wiki should be supported by the community
            leader. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
                style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">       </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Agreed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span
                style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">       </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Why should other open source communities have
            the time to contribute and this one not? We should think
            about it as give and take. What I want to say is: I do not
            have the time either, but I take the time because I think it
            is important…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Why should Alkacon come up with a solution? We
            could do that as well. We all belong to the community. I
            don’t want them to do all the work. They already do a lot.
            They just have to be ready to accept ideas and support them
            as good as they can.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Kai<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Von:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:opencms-dev-bounces@opencms.org">opencms-dev-bounces@opencms.org</a>
            [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:opencms-dev-bounces@opencms.org">mailto:opencms-dev-bounces@opencms.org</a>]
            <b>Im Auftrag von </b>Alberto Gallardo<br>
            <b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 10. November 2014 13:28<br>
            <b>An:</b> The OpenCms mailing list<br>
            <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [opencms-dev] OpenCms 9.5.0
            documentation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi again,<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                  1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">1.</span><span
                          style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">       </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Wiki for short howtos and FAQs.
                          Possibly more developer oriented</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">As I
                    mentioned, the current wiki is not officially
                    supported. If the records are accurate, it was made
                    available by Jan Meier with no official affiliation
                    (at least, not stated in the wiki) with Alkacon (<a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.opencms-wiki.org/index.php?title=OpenCms_Wiki:About&oldid=1498">http://www.opencms-wiki.org/index.php?title=OpenCms_Wiki:About&oldid=1498</a>)
                    around the 3 November 2006. The wiki states that it
                    currently belongs to Alkacon Software GmbH, but this
                    doesn't correspond with Alkacon's official statement
                    at the OpenCms Days 2014, where Dr. Daniel Seidel
                    confirmed that the wiki isn't opperated by Alkacon,
                    nor maintained, and even suggested that the Alkacon
                    Team don't participate in the Wiki since a long time
                    (in fact, the last contribution was on the 6th
                    November 2012: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.opencms-wiki.org/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&tagFilter=&contribs=user&target=Alkacon&namespace=&year=&month=-1">http://www.opencms-wiki.org/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&tagFilter=&contribs=user&target=Alkacon&namespace=&year=&month=-1</a>).<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">I do like having a wiki, but I
                    don't feel comfortable contributing and investing
                    time in a page that is not officially supported by
                    Alkacon. I don't like either how wild the page has
                    grown and I dare to doubt about its future
                    sustainability and scalability.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                  1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">2.</span><span
                          style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">       </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">New
                          documentation on GitHub. Possibly more user
                          oriented</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">I could attend Daniel's talk, and
                    I liked how much thinking they have devoted to the
                    documentation. At the same time, it was clear to me
                    that to maintain through all documentation the high
                    standards that they are aming, they won't be able to
                    quickly react to any pull-request (it is good so).
                    That is, the community still needs a lean
                    contribution model to the documentation.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                  1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">3.</span><span
                          style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">       </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mailing
                          list for quick answers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Unfortunatelly,
                    I have the impression that there are very few
                    OpenCms experts within the user community with
                    enough time to contribute in this list. Alkacon Team
                    doesn't look to have enough resources to push this
                    option either.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">I'm not saying that everything is
                    lost, neither that any of these options are
                    unacceptable. Just that I wish that Alkacon takes
                    all this into consideration and comes up soon with a
                    solution for supporting the community participation
                    (e.g. officially supporting the wiki, or providing a
                    new community-documentation module with lower
                    standards...).<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just my
                2 cents...<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<br>
                <br>
                Alberto Gallardo<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <br>
      <hr style="border:none; color:#909090; background-color:#B0B0B0;
        height: 1px; width: 99%;">
      <table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none;">
        <tbody>
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            <td style="border:none;padding:0px 15px 0px 8px"> <a
                moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.avast.com/"> <img
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                  src="http://static.avast.com/emails/avast-mail-stamp.png"
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            <td>
              <p style="color:#3d4d5a;
                font-family:"Calibri","Verdana","Arial","Helvetica";
                font-size:12pt;"> Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und
                Malware, denn der <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://www.avast.com/">avast! Antivirus</a>
                Schutz ist aktiv. </p>
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</pre>
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